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 Post subject: Politics! Gitmo.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:12 pm 
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May not be the time nor place for it but I think it's very important that people know about this kind of thing. There's no really appropriate situation in which to discuss government-sanctioned genital mutilation, so what the heck; might as well be the antisocial creep to do it here.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... ators.html

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 Post subject: Re: Politics! Gitmo.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:56 pm 
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It's not an anti-social subject. However I beleive it is certainly a sensitive subject. #1 we all would like to believe we are above such tactics. #2 ferreting out the truth may/is a political game with just the info needed to be leaked to gain a political advantage. I'll be playing out on the world stage the next 18 months.


Maybe Kurt should put this in Venting and moaning. ????

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 Post subject: Re: Politics! Gitmo.
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:37 am 
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I have no problems with the torture of suspected terrorists, as long as there is sufficient evidence that they are involved.

They (Terrorists) have no issues with destroying/maiming/torturing people who would do nothing to endanger them to promote their causes. I will not judge how others try to protect my way of life from those animals that wish to destroy it.

In this particular case, he was let go...so it lends to ask "What evidence did they have he was involved" I would hope they do not torture people without strong evidence of involvement.

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 Post subject: Re: Politics! Gitmo.
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:51 am 
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In my opinion the most dangerous thing about this approach is that you are actually changing the values you claim to stand for and eventually there may be little to differentiate the terrorist from the freedom loving country.

Gerhard

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 Post subject: Re: Politics! Gitmo.
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:58 am 
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Kurt wrote:
I have no problems with the torture of suspected terrorists, as long as there is sufficient evidence that they are involved


What? You're not even going to dress it up with language like "enhanced interrogation?" If you can't hold yourself to higher standards than the terrorists, then what good are you?

Quote:
I will not judge how others try to protect my way of life from those animals that wish to destroy it.


Okay, if your way of life isn't "we're just and democratic and we don't torture people", then what is it?

Here are three good reasons to not torture people, even awful people like the Taliban lunatics:

1. It doesn't work. Tortured people just say what they think you want to hear to make the torture stop; often the truth isn't enough.
2. It looks really bad and you lose respect from your allies.
3. You don't want to give the wrong people the authority and accidentally end up getting tortured yourself someday.

Oh, and 4. It's evil and you shouldn't be evil.

I have lost every shred of respect for you, Kurt. From now on when I read your name I'll see nothing but Herr Goebbels.

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Last edited by walter23 on Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Politics! Gitmo.
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:34 pm 
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walter23 wrote:

I have lost every shred of respect for you, Kurt. From now on when I read your name I'll see nothing but Herr Goebbels.


That was uncalled for! People can have differences in opinion and still be civil to each other, that is another cornerstone of western society.

Above all else the repression of differing opinions made me dislike the Bush administration as much as I did your judgement of another view does not strike me all that different.

Gerhard

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 Post subject: Re: Politics! Gitmo.
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:53 pm 
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gerhard wrote:
That was uncalled for! People can have differences in opinion and still be civil to each other, that is another cornerstone of western society.


It's kind of a boundary I have, along with advocating pedophilia and date-rape. Perhaps worse because in this case the advocate feels morally justified, which is utterly revolting. I'm not going to hold back on this one: torture is evil in all circumstances. It's one of the few absolute, inflexible principles I hold.

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Last edited by walter23 on Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Politics! Gitmo.
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:34 pm 
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gerhard wrote:
Above all else the repression of differing opinions made me dislike the Bush administration as much as I did your judgement of another view does not strike me all that different.


I'm a pretty open-minded guy (despite appearances to the contrary, I often see the other side of political arguments), but I've got to have some standards ;)

In any case, I'm not repressing Kurt's opinion; he's as free to express it now as he was an hour ago. Thing is: I don't care how nice someone is, or how well we'd otherwise get along. If you think torturing other people is okay (under any circumstances), that's a total deal killer. It's one of those lines that should not be crossed by any society I'd want to be associated with. If you want to be a barbarian, go join the Taliban.

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 Post subject: Re: Politics! Gitmo.
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 2:10 pm 
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There are very few absolutes in this world, if your wife and dog were kidnapped and you know that I know were they are, but if I don't tell you the tide will rise and they will both be dead. Possibly you may be persuaded to tolerate enhanced interrogation of me.

Gerhard

I don't support the death penalty as a rule but there have been times I think a criminal deserves. I try to observe the law but I have been known to speed. There are a lot more ambiguous areas in life than clear cut ones, pedophile lock him up and maybe castrate him, a drunk driver take their license, a speeder ah let them go.

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 Post subject: Re: Politics! Gitmo.
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 2:38 pm 
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gerhard wrote:
There are very few absolutes in this world, if your wife and dog were kidnapped and you know that I know were they are, but if I don't tell you the tide will rise and they will both be dead. Possibly you may be persuaded to tolerate enhanced interrogation of me.


Traumatized people shouldn't be making far-reaching political decisions, and that's what we're talking about here. By that rationale anything goes. What's next? Genocide? Not far off.

Quote:
I don't support the death penalty as a rule but there have been times I think a criminal deserves. I try to observe the law but I have been known to speed. There are a lot more ambiguous areas in life than clear cut ones, pedophile lock him up and maybe castrate him, a drunk driver take their license, a speeder ah let them go.


I agree with you in principle on most things (even the death penalty is something we can engage in rationale debate about, and it's not going to irreparably damage my opinion of you if you support it), but I'm not budging from the fundamentalist end of the "STATE SANCTIONED TORTURE IS EVIL" spectrum. This is done in secret (often), without trial (unlike the death penalty), and it's ostensibly supposed to be information gathering from *suspects* - not criminal justice against the convicted.

When WMDs weren't found, the real justification for going into Iraq turned into the fact that Saddam tortured his political enemies. And now torture is okay too? Can't you see what's happening here?

We agree not to torture people because we want to live in a world where we're free to go about our business and not be tortured. That's kind of the whole point of freedom and of having civilized rules of conduct. Even if you can temporarily benefit from breaking them your realize that it's in your longer term interests to avoid those things.

Here's what some American WWII prisoner of war camp operators & intelligence gatherers have to say on the subject:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02492.html

Quote:
"During the many interrogations, I never laid hands on anyone," said George Frenkel, 87, of Kensington. "We extracted information in a battle of the wits. I'm proud to say I never compromised my humanity."

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 Post subject: Re: Politics! Gitmo.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:15 pm 
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This is a photography website. The absence of any photos of said mutilated genitals would seem to make this irrelevant.

(Of course Walter could be a stand-in. I can provide some tools of the trade for the process).

All in the interest of making this thread "photography appropriate".

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 Post subject: Re: Politics! Gitmo.
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 7:30 am 
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The difference between being a terrorist and fighting to save/keep safe people that the terrorist community look to injure is quite large.

There is quite a big gap between looking to injure/kill/maim large numbers of people to get your political views over, and doing everything possible to prevent that same action.

If the people trying to prevent it cannot at times "Torture" to get information, they have no chance. The religious maniacs of the world could get away with quite a bit.

Walter, you can read my name any way you wish. You can rant on and on in your holier (did I spell that correctly) than thou setiments however the people who your protecting for the most part deserve to be where they are. You don't get picked up for being a terrorist unless there is a reason, I am not a member of any 3-initial government agency however would hope as I originally said there was evidence, strong evidence to support the actions.

From the news article you link, we cannot judge whether or not the guy was helping or not. Not enough evidence or information. Its simply an article that was geared to rile you up and it worked well.

Wait until your little dog is killed by a terrorist action, then you will not mind the actions so much.

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 Post subject: Re: Politics! Gitmo.
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 7:59 am 
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Quote:
But Obama argued that isn't the central point.

"That we got information from these individuals that were subjected to these techniques doesn't answer the core question, which is could we have gotten that same information without resorting to these techniques?" he said.

And he argued that banning all the enhanced interrogation techniques was the right thing to do because the information could have been gleaned in other ways.

But officials familiar with the interrogation program say that is simply not true with top al Qaeda operatives.

"The 14 major or 16 high-value targets we captured were all trained to resist interrogation," Michael Scheuer, a former CIA employee


Walter,
If a few Pedophiles were operating in a gang and had a house set up where they held kidnapped kids....and one of these people were captured but refused to give up the location of where the kids were being molested...at that point would you approve of torture to get the information? Or should the authorities just continue with that guys trial and allow the kids to continue being molested until some other break in the case happens?

Hopefully having a Muslim President will prevent the USA from being targeted, however if it does not we shall see if any new attacks happen on our own soil as the tactics used since 9/11 have prevented them too this point.

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 Post subject: Re: Politics! Gitmo.
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 11:46 am 
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Kurt wrote:
Hopefully having a Muslim President will prevent the USA from being targeted, however if it does not we shall see if any new attacks happen on our own soil as the tactics used since 9/11 have prevented them too this point.

Ah, no - he's an apostate by those standards, so fair game for killing in some eyes. (I confess that's not a ruling that I've ever quite understood - if your parents are Muslim, you're a Muslim until you die. If you renounce this, you're an apostate and fair game for others to kill. Surely God in whatever language you choose to render his name is big enough to pick his own fights?)

I think that for me, whatever the moral viewpoint on 'harsh interrogation', it has a simple problem - the evidence I've heard shows it doesn't work. The committed martyr has no incentive to save his life and stop the attacks on him by the interrogators, the guy you've picked up by mistake has no information of value but has been shown to often give any old information just to get you to stop hurting him, as will the less committed attacker being asked for information he genuinely doesn't know.

Morally I can't believe that exerting extreme physical pain in this way is justifiable, but practically I've heard far more say it gives duff information than good. Why should we surrender our moral authority in pursuit of information no more accurate than tossing dice?

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 Post subject: Re: Politics! Gitmo.
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 11:00 pm 
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The people that are being fought are not humane, ethical, moral, or any other word that would be associated.

How quickly/easily things are forgotten. (Don't open the links if you don't want to see evil)

http://www.aliennationreport.com/DAN.asx

http://www.aliennationreport.com/PUAL.wmv

http://www.aliennationreport.com/ARMVID.wmv

http://www.aliennationreport.com/JACKHEN.wmv

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 Post subject: Re: Politics! Gitmo.
PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 2:08 am 
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I've seen the beheadings, if that's what those links are. I saw a video of a hostage screaming through his severed windpipe during his execution (by knife), and it made me feel sick for a week. I can still hear that gargled inhuman scream if I'm not careful to guard against it while retelling this. I have abolutely nothing but revulsion for psychotic religious fundamentalists who can slit someone's throat while praising their stupid imaginary desert god.

But we are not torturers. If we're torturers, we're no better than them. I don't care what they are; WE DO NOT TORTURE. YOU HUNG SADDAM FOR TORTURING PEOPLE, in case you forgot.

I take a very extreme position on this because condeming state-sponsored torture is what sets western democracies apart from the backwards, despotic, crazy countries in the world. Once you turn your back on those morals, no matter how expedient you might believe your techniques are, you've lost something you can never get back.

And on the subject of expedience; do you commit other criminal acts just because they're expedient? Torture is illegal.

My opinion on this is totally unwavering, which is a pretty rare thing for me (I know I often talk in absolutes, but I usually see all sides to a story). This kind of discussion threatens to slowly shift opinion towards acceptance, and the media debate is doing just that I'm afraid.

At least the truth about a lot of people has finally come out; they're just seeking dirty, animalistic revenge. Bloodlust and hate. No credibility, no moral justification; just maniacs fighting maniacs.

I wonder if, when you're a grey old man, you'll sit around (like a lot of old Germans who survived the nazi era) regretting this insanity.

Kurt wrote:
The people that are being fought are not humane, ethical, moral, or any other word that would be associated.

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Last edited by walter23 on Sat May 02, 2009 2:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Politics! Gitmo.
PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 2:20 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Politics! Gitmo.
PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 2:31 am 
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Kurt wrote:
Walter,
If a few Pedophiles were operating in a gang and had a house set up where they held kidnapped kids....and one of these people were captured but refused to give up the location of where the kids were being molested...at that point would you approve of torture to get the information? Or should the authorities just continue with that guys trial and allow the kids to continue being molested until some other break in the case happens?


I think there are a lot of problems with your assumptions here, and your analogy isn't quite right. I think to be a correct analogy it wouldn't be one of the pedophiles you captured, but rather a guy from the neighborhood who you suspect might know the pedophiles, or maybe even be one himself. And you want to torture him to find out if he does or not. That's kind of different.

But let's assume you're right. By US law and by international law, torturing detainees is illegal. You're saying it's okay because it's the easiest way to get information. But is that how you operate? Do you break the law just because it's the easiest way?

I mean, the easiest way for me to get a movie is to download it. The easiest way for me to get stock photography for my advertising project is to search flickr and steal nice photos. I could shoplift food instead of buying it to save money. I'm sure you're the kind of guy who'd condemn that kind of stuff because its against the law; and that's sure as hell not torture.

So what the f**k, Kurt.

Quote:
Hopefully having a Muslim President will prevent the USA from being targeted, however if it does not we shall see if any new attacks happen on our own soil as the tactics used since 9/11 have prevented them too this point.


Obama's not a muslim. I'm not even an American and I know that.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22767392/

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 Post subject: Re: Politics! Gitmo.
PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 10:40 am 
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He was raised as a muslim, went to their mosques. He (Obama) is a career politician which means he will do whatever he thinks will gain him more votes to include stop going to a church...who knows what his beliefs really are.

Your correct Walter, you take a severe one way stance on the subject where as I do not. I am not far too either side and believe you have every right to your view....to express your view, I also feel I have the right to my view which to state it simply is "Do whatever you feel you have to do to protect what I care about" in regards to this subject. Will the people doing that always be right? No, there is no way for them to be right 100% of the time.

Why?

SImply, you cannot engage an enemy by the rules of 'fair play' when they have no rules.

Fighting terrorism is not like fighting another country or group of people. The enemy does not follow the Geneva Convention, they do not follow any civilized Rules of Engagement (ROE)...so tell me Walter how do you beat an enemy that does not play by rules without throwing some of the rules away yourself?

Do I think its right if/when someone who is tortured is not involved? Hell no, but you have to assume the people charged with doing this have/had sufficient evidence or a dire need to perform the interrogation. If someone in that position were found to be going off "Cowboy" or rouge in some way simply interrogating someone because of their race or other insufficient reason that they would be prosecuted.

Quote:
But let's assume you're right. By US law and by international law, torturing detainees is illegal. You're saying it's okay because it's the easiest way to get information. But is that how you operate? Do you break the law just because it's the easiest way?

Don't miss quote me Walter, I did not say it was the easiest way nor did I say it should always be used or be the standard way to interrogate. What I am saying is that when its necessary to prevent attacks when its used, presumably as an extreme measure to obtain information.

Quote:
I mean, the easiest way for me to get a movie is to download it. The easiest way for me to get stock photography for my advertising project is to search flickr and steal nice photos. I could shoplift food instead of buying it to save money. I'm sure you're the kind of guy who'd condemn that kind of stuff because its against the law; and that's sure as hell not torture.

Aren't you one of the people always talking about doing that kind of stuff. Your right, I don't do it and I doubt that I would torture another human unless at that point in time I thought it would save someone that I cared about...not just another person but someone that I personally cared about.

Quote:
I can still hear that gargled inhuman scream if I'm not careful to guard against it while retelling this. I have abolutely nothing but revulsion for psychotic religious fundamentalists who can slit someone's throat while praising their stupid imaginary desert god.

But we are not torturers. If we're torturers, we're no better than them. I don't care what they are; WE DO NOT TORTURE. YOU HUNG SADDAM FOR TORTURING PEOPLE, in case you forgot.


That is what the videos are of. And I agree with everything except your last point. Saddam was killed by his own people for murder, genocide, torture, enslavement. He was not torturing for the purpose of saving his people, he was doing it if the people in his country disagreed with him.

Your attempting to slant this, or have a slanted view of my statements. I am not a proponent of torture, I am a proponent of doing whatever it takes to keep my home/hometown/state/country safe where we do not have to go about our lives worried if the store we are going to stop at today is going to be blown up. Keep bio weapons out of my drinking water. Keep airplanes from flying into sky scrapers.

If something that did not include violence would settle this and make mankind all get along, I am all for it...but until people stop believing in their 2000 year old religions that most likely will not happen.

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 Post subject: Re: Politics! Gitmo.
PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 3:01 pm 
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Once your government has gained approval for torturing external political enemies it's but one small step to gain approval for the torture of internal enemies. And you can imagine how enjoyable it is to live in those kinds of countries.

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 Post subject: Re: Politics! Gitmo.
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 8:44 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Politics! Gitmo.
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 7:30 am 
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Torture is inappropriate in any circumstance. It is illegal to do so under the Constitution and unless one is with Bush camp opinions that these founding principles were only a piece of paper and need not be observed. It is ludricous to think that America has made itself stronger and protected its citizens by violating the very rules that are the basis of making the nation what it is. Throwing the Constitution away did not make this country stronger.

To say that someone considered a terrorist is reason enough to torture them because they are considered a terrorist is daft, every day people are arrested because they are suspected of something or another and later found to be innocent, sometimes after years after being found guilty or in confinement and even after an execuetion (oops got that one wrong didn't we).

What makes the intelligence services any more accurate in their assumption of ones political or terrorist associations? When there is nothing like a court to even try to get it right. Nothing, at the very best errors will occur and innocents will be tortured, at worst intentional acts.

Admissions taken under duress have no weight and no accuracy, it is a known fact that those tortured will admit to anything that will stop the torturers actions. How does getting false information help?

There is no such thing as fair play in any criminal enterprise whether political or for profit, might as well torture any class of rule breakers from speeders to terrorists. There is real level of difference and that is the very road advocated by allowing torture. People get up in arms when a police officer steps outside the rules they are bound by, and rightfully, but crime could be all but removed from our communities if officers were allowed to find the guilty using the the tools and techniques of the Inquisition.

There is no circumstance under American law where torture is legal, ethical or reasonable to be performed. America has long history of shady political behavior from dealings with the native peoples, to the countries of Central America and elsewhere but this is one of the worst. It is a shameful situation.

And finally who the hell cares if Obama is a muslim or not? This "fact" has been expressed hundreds to times and refuted as many times. It is irrelevant, this nation is based on a number of tenets expressed in the Constitution, one of which is the freedom of religion. Not a particular faith but allowing all citizens to practice their beliefs in a free society without fear of reprisals by the government or other citizens. To argue that anothers faith is anti-american is in itself a bigoted anti-american attitude.

The political and military of this country all take an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution and not pick and choose what article they think should be defended and to hell with the others. This oath is an all or nothing situation. But honor and faithfulness is a rare quality today so to expect this to actually occur is probably just whistling in the dark.

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 Post subject: Re: Politics! Gitmo.
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 9:23 am 
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Pyro Shooter
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One question, if torture is fine and just as a means to protect your way of like, why is Guantánamo Bay located in Cuba instead of Washington DC?

I agree with everything Bob said. There is no justification for torture. If you resort to terrorist methods to combat terrorism, then you have become the terrorists.

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