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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:10 pm 
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Noted filthy communist Noam Chomsky has this to say about Rush Limbaugh. I thought it was interesting. The rest of the interview is here.

So take right now, for example, there is a right-wing populist uprising. It's very common, even on the left, to just ridicule them, but that's not the right reaction. If you look at those people and listen to them on talk radio, these are people with real grievances. I listen to talk radio a lot and it's kind of interesting. If you can sort of suspend your knowledge of the world and just enter into the world of the people who are calling in, you can understand them. I've never seen a study, but my sense is that these are people who feel really aggrieved. These people think, "I've done everything right all my life, I'm a god-fearing Christian, I'm white, I'm male, I've worked hard, and I carry a gun. I do everything I'm supposed to do. And I'm getting shafted." And in fact they are getting shafted. For 30 years their wages have stagnated or declined, the social conditions have worsened, the children are going crazy, there are no schools, there's nothing, so somebody must be doing something to them, and they want to know who it is. Well Rush Limbaugh has answered - it's the rich liberals who own the banks and run the government, and of course run the media, and they don't care about you—they just want to give everything away to illegal immigrants and gays and communists and so on.

Well, you know, the reaction we should be having to them is not ridicule, but rather self-criticism. Why aren't we organizing them? I mean, we are the ones that ought to be organizing them, not Rush Limbaugh. There are historical analogs, which are not exact, of course, but are close enough to be worrisome. This is a whiff of early Nazi Germany. Hitler was appealing to groups with similar grievances, and giving them crazy answers, but at least they were answers; these groups weren't getting them anywhere else. It was the Jews and the Bolsheviks [that were the problem].

I mean, the liberal democrats aren't going to tell the average American, "Yeah, you're being shafted because of the policies that we've established over the years that we're maintaining now." That's not going to be an answer. And they're not getting answers from the left. So, there's an internal coherence and logic to what they get from Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, and the rest of these guys. And they sound very convincing, they're very self-confident, and they have an answer to everything—a crazy answer, but it's an answer. And it's our fault if that goes on. So one thing to be done is don't ridicule these people, join them, and talk about their real grievances and give them a sensible answer, like, "Take over your factories."


(Take over your factories is probably kind of a reference to the reality that people in Argentina recently took over their factories when the economy tanked and everything went nuts a few years ago, and you know, big bad Marx).

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:16 am 
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Well Walter being one of the older , gun toting ( although it's been in the gun safe for the past 20 years) Independent Americans let me say Rush Limbaugh is full of shit. He is a radio personality vying for ratings and profit. He is not the voice of the bible thumping right, for the targeted white, balding male American or the pinko communist left. I do not feel shafted, my wages, as pitiful as they may be have not stagnated. I'm a blue collar worker and hold journeyman refrigeration, Stationary Steam Engineer, Gas Pipe Fitters and a Asbestos Contractors/Supervisor Asbestos licenses. I will have my journeymans electricians license by February and a useless 32 year old college degree for US History.[/i] I have positioned myself to be employed regardless of the economic climate. I have never been unemployed or lacked for work, I don't depend on the government to provide my every need. I don't pray for Obama to be impeached. I believe in limited federal government and states rights as laid out in the US constitution. If anyone wants to debate me on that don't waste your time...see...my US history degree...don't bring in religion, debating facts only.
I think about the same of the far right as I do the far left....they are both nuts. :D As for the reference to Hilter, that is not Rush pulling in that category of people but the Obama administration....too many people feel government should provide every need of the populace and be the "cure all" to their needs. They want to be followers not free thinkers. It's garbage. I deleted bullshit for garbage. :shock:

I believe in healthcare reform, affirmative action and education. Education at the forefront. I think man made global warming is the biggest hoax I will ever see. Greenland is named that because..................think historically.........

The media is enamored with Obama to the point of obsession. The Obama administration is not transparent as promised and even more vile than the GW Bush years. As for taking over the factories....Obama nationalized one of our largest corporations General Motors and stole the investments of the stock holders and gave the dollars to the unions that supported him. A redistribution of wealth. He gave Chrysler Corporation to a foreign company...free of charge. His TARP money (bailout) went to AIG, the company that insured the federal employee pensions. Did that money trickle down...no..they invested in the foreign bond market while the US has a legitimate 15% unemployment rate. Over 30% in Detroit.

AS FOR the crazy answers to Glenn Beck or Shawn Hannity... prove their facts incorrect. They are factually correct, nobody can say that about Al Gore or Barack Obama.


Easy answers to our problems here? No. If there was we wouldn't be having this conversation. :D I'm hoping Obama pulls a Clinton and slides from liberal to moderate.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:26 am 
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I have a friend that listens to Rush faithfully.. I listen to him comment on Rush and I'm glad I don't listen to him. I am also a gun toting (sometimes literally) red blooded American that is far from liberal in most of my views, but I agree that Rush is a horses ass.

I did vote for Obama, but it was only because I really did not like the way McCain was acting in debates and on some of his view points... Plus, I really, really thought that Obama was going to go full liberal on his health care reform and try to do a full blown socialist free for all type system, but what we got was really a bunch of crap... But, I do hope he pulls his head out of his butt and pays down our debt like Clinton did when he was in office.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:30 am 
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Greenland is named that because..................think historically.........


Greenland was named Greenland (in Danish (Viking) of course) to try to encourage people to settle there by giving it a nice sounding name. It's got nothing to do with the climate, historical or present day. They also called Newfoundland "Vinland" (vine land) because they thought they'd grow grapes there. Hah.

Quote:
The media is enamored with Obama to the point of obsession. The Obama administration is not transparent as promised and even more vile than the GW Bush years.


I should have quoted the first part of the paragraph I cut off:
First of all, don't believe anything you hear from power systems. So if Obama or the boss or the newspapers or anyone else tells you they're doing this, that, or the other thing, dismiss it or assume the opposite is true, which it often is. You have to rely on yourself and your associates—gifts don't come from above; you're going to win them, or you won't have them, and you win by struggle, and that requires understanding and serious analysis of the options and the circumstances, and then you can do a lot. So take right now, for example, there is a right-wing populist uprising. It's very common, even on the left, to just ridicule them, but that's not the right reaction. If you look at those people and listen to them on talk radio, these are people with real grievances...

Quote:
As for taking over the factories....Obama nationalized one of our largest corporations General Motors and stole the investments of the stock holders and gave the dollars to the unions that supported him. A redistribution of wealth. He gave Chrysler Corporation to a foreign company...free of charge. His TARP money (bailout) went to AIG, the company that insured the federal employee pensions. Did that money trickle down...no..they invested in the foreign bond market while the US has a legitimate 15% unemployment rate. Over 30% in Detroit.


Obama is no socialist, and the bailout was no Marxist redistribution of wealth. The bailout was theft of our tax money by the wealthy elites. I say "our" because the same happened in Canada. Bring on the f**k pitchforks and torches; those bastards ruined the economy and then stole our money to keep the party going. I was excited when the market started to crash because I thought that finally some of the insane bullshit was going to be corrected, the natural capitalist way. But instead, the common man lost his pension, or his house, or his job, while billions or trillions of dollars in welfare went the elites to keep them in business. You should see the mansions going up in the rich district of my city right now; ridiculous. Recession; for most of us. Glut for them. Lots of really, really nice boats too. The rich-poor divide is bigger than it probably has ever been since North America was first settled by europeans.

See, this is what's f**k us up. This fake left vs. right political divide, while the real robbers point the fingers at the other side and laugh all the way to their giant yachts or whatever. It's interesting to me that both the right and the left are both angry about the wealthy elites, they just each think they have a better idea than the other about who those elites actually are.

Quote:
Shawn Hannity...


Isn't he about due to follow through on his big promise to get waterboarded to prove it's not torture? ;)

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Last edited by walter23 on Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:38 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:03 am 
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I listen to to a talk radio host who is on right before Rush, so sometimes I catch a part of his program.

What bugs me most about Rush is his put-on arrogance and "i am god, i know all, i can fix all" attitude. When I can occasionally not flip off the station after the first obnoxious spoutings by his holiness, I can kinda agree with a few of his points. And then he'll go and take it off the deep end - in which case I roll my eyes and find something else to listen too.

I'm glad I didn't vote for Obama. At least I can say I didn't help put him in office. I was thinking along the lines of Walter initially - "wow, now that things are REALLY f-ed up around her, people will have to actually fix it and stop sweeping the problems under the rug."

Ha. Gov't = Epic Fail.

Right now there's a massive ballot initiative trying to get enough signatures in CA - an effort to create a part time legislature. Most of the states have one. But we have a full time, career politician gov't who try to extend term limits every chance they get and use state taxes for pet projects. I hope we get this passed... Seeing how well states like Texas work with it (no debt, better education, some of the best real estate markets in the country) I wonder would would happen if we had a NATIONAL part time gov't. ;-)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:48 pm 
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eastsider wrote:
The media is enamored with Obama to the point of obsession. The Obama administration is not transparent as promised and even more vile than the GW Bush years.

Worse than very valuable contracts being given uncontested to companies in which the Vice President has a major interest? Worse than holding back on pursuing the man responsible for 9/11 to maintain that as a pretext for invading a country he also opposed on the basis of intelligence that the intelligence services either rated as weak or flat disagreed with? Worse than causing the national debt to rise in both absolute terms and as a percentage of GDP while cutting taxes for the wealthiest?

Quote:
As for taking over the factories....Obama nationalized one of our largest corporations General Motors and stole the investments of the stock holders and gave the dollars to the unions that supported him. A redistribution of wealth. He gave Chrysler Corporation to a foreign company...free of charge. His TARP money (bailout) went to AIG, the company that insured the federal employee pensions. Did that money trickle down...no..they invested in the foreign bond market while the US has a legitimate 15% unemployment rate. Over 30% in Detroit

They went into government protection because they were bankrupt, if they were solvent they'd have been at liberty to carry on as they pleased; the stock holders' investment was gone because the company they owned had flat run out of money, gone bust. If this was just an effort to steal from stock holders and give to his friends, how come Ford stayed out of it? The big three car manufacturers had been openly described as banks / pension funds / healthcare providers that happened to make cars for years.

I don't know the details of AIG's business practices since relief, but they were in an unusual position because they had ended up underwriting the risk of near enough every bank to some degree as I understand. If AIG had been allowed to go to the wall as per Lehman Brothers, the systemic risk was that the majority of the banking system would follow them straight down.

Now, my argument there would be that if they're too big to fail then they're too big to be private - if you're going to take the profit for yourself then you've got to be able to take the loss for yourself too. If you're in a position where your loss will take out everyone else with it and we have to underwrite the loss, it's immoral that you should extract a profit that's only possible because of our underwriting your losses. Same logic as building codes, pollution legislation, any of a number of laws. You want to do something stupid to yourself? Fine, be my guest, aim that gun at your feet. You want to do something stupid that takes out your neighbours too? Sorry, no. They have a right not be hurt by your actions as much as they have a right not to be punched in the face by you.

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AS FOR the crazy answers to Glenn Beck or Shawn Hannity... prove their facts incorrect. They are factually correct, nobody can say that about Al Gore or Barack Obama.

Would you care to give specific examples? I can't refute an argument I've never seen.

Quote:
Easy answers to our problems here? No. If there was we wouldn't be having this conversation. :D I'm hoping Obama pulls a Clinton and slides from liberal to moderate.

He already is, he's a long way from being a hard leftist and far more of a centrist. He's proposed an incredibly mild healthcare reform that is providing little more than an insurer of last resort rather than an Orwellian imposition on the population. He's provided economic support in much the same way that the conservative governments of France and Germany to name two I know of, and I think Italy too with the well-known liberal (ahem) Silvio Berlusconi. He's supporting an escalation of the military involvement in Afghanistan in much the same was as Bush did in Iraq. Obama isn't a socialist by any reasonable definition and wouldn't be that big a stretch for many centre-right parties.


EyesLifted wrote:
Ha. Gov't = Epic Fail.

Right now there's a massive ballot initiative trying to get enough signatures in CA - an effort to create a part time legislature. Most of the states have one. But we have a full time, career politician gov't who try to extend term limits every chance they get and use state taxes for pet projects. I hope we get this passed... Seeing how well states like Texas work with it (no debt, better education, some of the best real estate markets in the country) I wonder would would happen if we had a NATIONAL part time gov't. ;-)

I remember hearing an analysis of the difference in scandals between the US and UK a while back. We're in an _enormous_ row because MPs spent their housing allowances (often described as expenses but technically no, they were allowances) in unwise ways such as cleaning of moats and buying floating houses for their ducks, or of a married couple, both MPs, who claimed the same two homes for constituency and parliamentary business but separately described them each as their second homes so entitling them to higher payments... People have resigned over this in huge numbers, often over sums of a few months salary at maximum, so many that the next parliament will be the biggest change on record no matter who wins. On the other hand people have been caught having affairs and they usually (but not always) resign the high level jobs but stay on at a lower level. We care more about your hands staying out of the till than what you do in your private life.

Now, the suggestion I heard (and I'm quite willing to be contradicted) was that this was reversed in the USA. Clinton was impeached for lying about sex yet Cheney could direct work to Halliburton in some safety. The suggestion was that a little bit of personal enrichment was tolerated because the person who got money out stood a good chance of getting money out for his voters too, and tax was so resented that as much as possible put back into the local economy was good. The problem with this attitude extended is the problem with pork barrel projects in general. One man's pork is another's valuable program, but if it's wrong somewhere else then it can't be right just because it's here.

I get the impression the bigger problem with California in particular though is the statute requiring referenda on changes meaning the projects get voted through but not the taxes to pay for them - a _very_ good example of why I oppose micromanaging direct democracy, because it allows the divorcing of an action from its consequences.

And I really don't understand how a supposedly failing organisation could be improved by requiring less committment and effort from its workers. It might save it money in office costs and salaries but how would we react to a company boss who announced that his organisation was facing strong competition, increasing costs and a decreasing market and he planned to solve the company's problems by making his senior staff only work for two days a week?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:51 pm 
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Just something between periods of the game...

today on NBC Al Gore said the earth's core temperature is millions of degrees....think his facts might be a wee bit off?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:42 am 
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Al Gore is a politician, not a climate scientist. Who gives a f**k what Al Gore has to say?

You need to examine the way your head logically strings things together if you think the ignorance of a politician has any connection to whether a physical thing is, or is not, happening.

This is what I mean when I complain about the sports-team (or celebrity) model of politics (actually an ironic claim given the context of your quote, haha). Instead of arguing about real things and ideas people doing this kind of thing argue about the political figures involved and how trustworthy they find them, and that's totally ridiculous.

Barak Obama, Al Gore, George Bush, Sarah Palin, whoever the hell else - they have no bearing on any of this. They are (or were) out primarily for one thing; their own power and (re)election. The hell with all of them; let's just put them all aside and talk about other, more important stuff.

eastsider wrote:
Just something between periods of the game...

today on NBC Al Gore said the earth's core temperature is millions of degrees....think his facts might be a wee bit off?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:54 am 
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eftpotrm wrote:
Now, my argument there would be that if they're too big to fail then they're too big to be private - if you're going to take the profit for yourself then you've got to be able to take the loss for yourself too. If you're in a position where your loss will take out everyone else with it and we have to underwrite the loss, it's immoral that you should extract a profit that's only possible because of our underwriting your losses.


Damn man, that's the best worded analysis of it I've seen.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:58 am 
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Who cares about Al Gore...about 150 million Americans hang on his every word. He is the media's "go to" person when a new debate arises on climate change. I was cracking up when he was lecturing how the skeptics facts were so wrong and he said something like " they have to accept the the earths core is millions of degrees and....."
He is definitely about the $$$$.

BUT again unfortunately Mr Gore is the media darling when it comes to Climate Change...hell they gave him an Oscar.




Quote:
Shawn Hannity...


Isn't he about due to follow through on his big promise to get waterboarded to prove it's not torture? ;)[/quote]

How my blue collar mind works (and yes Walter it does work better over a cold beer discussion. :lol: )

FACT: the CIA waterboarded prisoners

The proving it's torture is opinion...one person's torture is another persons Q&A. Fact is the CIA waterboarded, no question about that. The OP-ED part of the show is convincing the gullible that it isn't torture. I don't know why they don't go for the easier argument: yes, it's torture but it was necessary. I suppose that would make them monsters so the debate of torture or not torture.
These talk show host like Limbaugh, Hannity etc...are very careful to have the facts but it goes south when they throw their political spin and personal opinions. That's how they stay on the air. Hannity may say: this is only my opinion but I'm right and your opinion is wrong. It won't change the basic fact.

A poor analogy coming up.. Fact: Dinosaur bones were found in Montana

Debate A: mass extinction and fossilazation Debate B: the devil put them there to test our faith
Fact is the bones are there, the debate/opinion is why are they in the ground.

I tried watching Glenn Beck yesterday, I'd never seen him before. Not much there but sarcasm, he was very clownish. I think it was the Pugh Polls that did a fact check on the these "news" show hosts. Limbaugh, Hannity and Beck were 1,2,3 on getting it right. Chris Matthews, Oberman (?) were not as accurate. I think it was Matthews that was really bad. I'll see if I can find that again, it was back during the summer... I know Limbaugh pays an outside company to check is facts and report any errors to the main stream media so I'd bet he's very careful not to look like he is more of an idiot than he really is.

EDIT; the Red Wings pulled out an overtime victory 3-2.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:00 am 
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walter23 wrote:
eftpotrm wrote:
Now, my argument there would be that if they're too big to fail then they're too big to be private - if you're going to take the profit for yourself then you've got to be able to take the loss for yourself too. If you're in a position where your loss will take out everyone else with it and we have to underwrite the loss, it's immoral that you should extract a profit that's only possible because of our underwriting your losses.


Damn man, that's the best worded analysis of it I've seen.



ditto

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:54 pm 
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eastsider wrote:
Who cares about Al Gore...about 150 million Americans hang on his every word. He is the media's "go to" person when a new debate arises on climate change. I was cracking up when he was lecturing how the skeptics facts were so wrong and he said something like " they have to accept the the earths core is millions of degrees and....."
He is definitely about the $$$$.

BUT again unfortunately Mr Gore is the media darling when it comes to Climate Change...hell they gave him an Oscar.


What he's doing or saying has nothing to do with whether or not climate change is a problem. He's just a politician.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:21 pm 
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Walter,

We really need to meet in a pub sometime. It's on my do to list! :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:00 pm 
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eastsider wrote:
Walter,

We really need to meet in a pub sometime. It's on my do to list! :lol:


Hehe, if you ever make it out to Canada's west coast, I'm game. Or vice versa (Detroit is a place I'd like to visit).

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