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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:15 pm 
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I printed this picture (a favorite spot of mine and my wife) as a present at 8x20 inches on a Giclee printer, and goddamn that is one sharp camera, even handheld. In the print you can read the credit card logos on the door and you can see the sailboats reflected in the glass.

I'd thought about doing a lightjet or lambda or chromira print, but it's pretty expensive and they don't have as many choices for a matte background, so I picked a giclee instead.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:41 pm 
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drpablo wrote:
I printed this picture (a favorite spot of mine and my wife) as a present at 8x20 inches on a Giclee printer, and goddamn that is one sharp camera, even handheld. In the print you can read the credit card logos on the door and you can see the sailboats reflected in the glass.

I'd thought about doing a lightjet or lambda or chromira print, but it's pretty expensive and they don't have as many choices for a matte background, so I picked a giclee instead.


Have you shown a picture of this before, on a different camera? For some reason I triggered a big deja vu on "you can read the credit card logos on the door and you can see the sailboats reflected in the glass". I even remember seeing crops of one or both of those details.

The place also just looks kind of familiar.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:24 pm 
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I did but no one replied. :roll:

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:22 am 
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I think this is an example of a shot that has great personal significance that just isn't going to get beyond "oh cool" in the eyes of those who don't know that significance. I mean, or me, this is more about the exaggerated size of the mid-frame than anything else, I am sorry to say.

Clearly this is a terrible camera, so why don't you just send it to me and I'll add it to my collection of terrible cameras....

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:45 pm 
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I didn't post it to talk about the shot itself, but if it takes an artistically masterful shot to generate a discussion about cameras and printing then I'll get back to you some other time.




So let's try this thread again:

I printed a picture from my Noblex at 8x20 inches on a Giclee printer, and goddamn that is one sharp camera, even handheld. I'd thought about doing a lightjet or lambda or chromira print, but it's pretty expensive and they don't have as many choices for a matte background, so I picked a giclee instead.

Your thoughts?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:01 am 
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Yeah, but clearly the camera is no good, so you should send it to me. I mean, you deserve better equipment...

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 1:21 am 
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drpablo wrote:
I printed a picture from my Noblex at 8x20 inches on a Giclee printer, and goddamn that is one sharp camera, even handheld. I'd thought about doing a lightjet or lambda or chromira print, but it's pretty expensive and they don't have as many choices for a matte background, so I picked a giclee instead.

Your thoughts?


My thoughts: why the obsession with acutance? ;)

I've seen tons of photos from you that are absolutely stunning... and they're stunning not because of sharpness but because of light and composition. The cathedral interiors & exteriors, the IR tower, the (christian science?) temple in Boston on Velvia, those cyanotypes of the harbour, etc. Sharpness was great in those and the detail of the prints must have been stunning, but I'd rather see a fantastic composition with wicked light taken through a coke bottle end than an eye-bleeding print taken with a composition that doesn't work for me.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:01 am 
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walter23 wrote:
My thoughts: why the obsession with acutance? ;)


Because he's a doctor specializing in creepy crawlies that most of us can only see through microscopes. I mean, if there is an amoeba on that doorknob then he wants to record it ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 1:40 pm 
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How do we know this is a print? Or from a Noblex for that matter?

Dr. Pablo certainly has sufficient skills to fool us with an image shot on his 4 x 5 and cropped.

Or even from his Hassy and cropped.

Or, hell, even from an old 35mm film shot.

I hear he has the Verrazano bridge for sale (in need of maintenance--so beware.)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 1:42 pm 
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Keithwms wrote:
Yeah, but clearly the camera is no good, so you should send it to me. I mean, you deserve better equipment...
Yes, that's clearly the problem and the solution. Strange I didn't think of it myself!

walter23 wrote:
I'd rather see a fantastic composition with wicked light taken through a coke bottle end than an eye-bleeding print taken with a composition that doesn't work for me.
I didn't ask for critique about the composition. I took a picture of a subject that I wanted a picture of.

Without you knowing the site, you don't know what the compositional possibilities were. The building is wide, and if I backed up any farther I'd be in Long Island Sound -- and the only possible photographic device with a wider angle of view would be a fisheye lens. So the Noblex allowed me to get a shot that I wanted, it's extraordinarily sharp and detailed, and the film I chose worked well to hold detail both in the bright clouds and the dark reflections, and it enlarged really well. The Giclee printing on a matte surface also helped tame the contrast and gave it a more pastel look, which works really well with the stonework.

It's not a work of art, but it's a nice functional shot that shows the entire building and it communicates what I want.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:06 pm 
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drpablo wrote:
Without you knowing the site, you don't know what the compositional possibilities were. The building is wide, and if I backed up any farther I'd be in Long Island Sound -- and the only possible photographic device with a wider angle of view would be a fisheye lens. So the Noblex allowed me to get a shot that I wanted, it's extraordinarily sharp and detailed, and the film I chose worked well to hold detail both in the bright clouds and the dark reflections, and it enlarged really well. The Giclee printing on a matte surface also helped tame the contrast and gave it a more pastel look, which works really well with the stonework.


It's actually pretty nice looking now that I give it a chance, and that makes a lot of sense.

I guess I've been pretty critical of the things you've posted lately and I hope they don't come across as too harsh. I'm just trying to nudge you back into shooting in the vein of some of the better stuff you've done in the past. I haven't been too impressed with much out of your noblex yet - the exception maybe being the shot of your house from the driveway. That one looks really nice. I guess it takes time to learn to use a tool like this, it's not exactly an easy perspective or aspect ratio.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:35 pm 
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The hard part is actually having a photography hobby at all these days. I mean I've got a 57 mile commute to work and I've got an 8 month old. So going and finding interesting things to shoot is not as easy as when I was living in Boston with all kinds of access to interesting subjects at any time of day.

There are landscape and architectural subjects that I can make studies of, like I did in Boston, but it takes a lot of time that I don't have. I may lug the view camera around the Duke campus at some point, and that water wheel / mill I posted before is close to home and a good subject.

But then the other obstacle is that our E6 lab closed, so now I can only get C41 roll film (no sheet film) developed locally. I have a Jobo sitting in a box, but damned if I have time to even open it let alone use it.

So you don't need to nudge me. The problem isn't that I'm being a lazy photographer or that my eye has gone to shit. Making the time to get great shots is just a lower priority now, so I think one can only expect so much. Just keep that in mind -- I know that I haven't shot many prizewinners lately.


As for the Noblex, I don't know about "great" shots, but there are a couple that I think really give a sense of its capabilities and in themselves have some visual interest:

These two of the Duke Chapel:

http://www.pbase.com/drpablo74/image/103406370.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/drpablo74/image/103406373.jpg

This one of a civil war battlefield site (notwithstanding the blown sky):

http://www.pbase.com/drpablo74/image/105996758.jpg


And some others I haven't bothered to upload yet.
But like with every other new toy I've gotten, this will take some practice to find its real strengths.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:47 pm 
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I think my issue with this shot, and with noblexy shots in general, is that there can be overemphasis on closer subjects. I mean, why would you want the eye to be drawn to that wall, in this case? Why would you want it to appear to bulge out toward the viewer? That proximity bulge is what I notice first and I don't think that's what you want. Unless it's a reclining nude or something, now then you might like the effect :shock: 8)

On the other hand I can imagine that it might be possible to make that effect work for you. But generally, I think my initial strategy would be to avoid close-up subjects altogether, and to seek subjects that don't have much visual depth for starters.

I guess it takes a lot of practice to know how to shoot effectively with a noblex, but it also takes some training on the part of the viewer, I think, to know what you're looking at.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:28 pm 
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I actually disagree about the overemphasis on closer subjects. I think that's FAR more of a problem with rectilinear wide lenses, which greatly exaggerate distance, and in fact that's one of the main justifications to use a Noblex.

The distortion from the Noblex is all but invisible if your subject matter is distant, and if there aren't any nearby horizontal lines.

This is the only direct comparison I've made, but you can see all the foreground and peripheral stretching in the 12mm shot that is absent in the Noblex, and the house just seems "bigger" in the Noblex shot. The superwide rectilinear lenses make the center of the picture seem like it's collapsing and the periphery stretching. This can be dramatic but it can also just look unnatural.

Image

Image

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:33 pm 
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Of course the distortion is affected by whether you are facing North or South. If the lens rotates in the same direction as the rotation of the Earth you will get noticeable positive distortion. If you shoot so that the lens rotates in the opposite direction to the rotation of the Earth you will get negative distortion.

If you shoot in a north or south orientation the distortion is negligible.

The motion of the Earth orbiting the Sun appears to have almost no effect.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:43 pm 
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In addition to the Coriolis effect to which [I think] Packard is referring, I notice that one camera renders the colours of crape myrtles better than the other. :D

It isn't lens distortion per se that I am referring to, it is that the near-far optical effects are so strong with the noblex. I mean, you do not deny that the rock wall in shot #1 appears to bulge out, right? In the noblex literature, one finds:

Quote:
The [Noblex] photographs correspond to the natural space perception of the human eye.


But yet I bet I wouldn't have the feeling that the wall is bulging out toward me if I were standing there.... I guess the brain corrects for that somehow.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:19 pm 
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Keithwms wrote:
In addition to the Coriolis effect to which [I think] Packard is referring, I notice that one camera renders the colours of crape myrtles better than the other. :D

It isn't lens distortion per se that I am referring to, it is that the near-far optical effects are so strong with the noblex. I mean, you do not deny that the rock wall in shot #1 appears to bulge out, right? In the noblex literature, one finds:

Quote:
The [Noblex] photographs correspond to the natural space perception of the human eye.


But yet I bet I wouldn't have the feeling that the wall is bulging out toward me if I were standing there.... I guess the brain corrects for that somehow.



I suspect it is your mind that is messing with the image and not your eyes. Your mind makes adjustments that the camera will not. Your mind does not allow your girlfriend's nose to look ridiculously large when you are just a few inches from her face. But your camera will render that shot as a very amusing one.

Your eye does not see skin color as "warm" when lit by incandescent bulbs. Your mind automatically color corrects the image.

So in real life your mind does not allow the nearer section of the wall to look distorted compared to the more distant section. In the photo your mind does not make that correction.

In other words, the image is not f*cked up; your mind is.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:37 pm 
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That stone wall is perfectly straight in real life. The roof of the restaurant isn't bulging either.

Yes, there certainly is a type of distortion with the Noblex. Except in situations where it's used for artistic effect (hopefully judiciously), it can indeed be very distracting if it affects a very visible detail. The shot from the virginia battlefield that I linked above shows the same effect in the foreground, but it's much less distracting. In the shots of my house you really can't see the distortion at all. And if I took a shot from a scenic viewpoint across the Grand Canyon you wouldn't see it either.

Packard wrote:
In other words, the image is not f*cked up; your mind is.
That's a prerequisite to achieve a doctoral education in non-classical physics.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:19 am 
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Looks like that same phenomenon happens with stitched panoramas. Not surprising, it's kind of like using a swing lens, but with big facets and with rectilinear projection.

Check out the clouds in this one.

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/sho ... ost6886359

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:25 am 
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As I recall, the bulging effect is maximum when the camera is tilted. Hence the use of bubble levels.

Now look at my wacky 360 shot from Arlington, that is something different! I worked pretty hard to get it level. Again one could claim "The photographs correspond to the natural space perception of the human eye" but.... uh...

Image

And yes the gravestones are arranged in perfectly straight rows and columns...

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